In this episode of the Samson Strength Coach Collective, Jess Kinder, Senior Associate Athletic Trainer at Appalachian State University, joins the show to unpack one of the most overlooked dynamics in sports performance: the relationship between the strength coach and the athletic trainer.
Jess shares how her background in athletic training shaped her athlete-first approach and why trust and communication are essential when performance staffs work together. She explains where this relationship can break down, often through poor communication, ego, or a lack of respect for each other’s expertise, and how strong collaboration can directly improve athlete health, recovery, and performance.
The conversation also explores rehab philosophy, common basketball injuries, long-term athlete care, and the importance of teaching athletes how to take ownership of their bodies. From daily communication to return-to-play decisions, Jess offers a practical look at what it takes for support staff to truly function as one team.
Key Takeaways
- The relationship between strength coaches and athletic trainers can directly impact athlete health and performance.
- Poor communication, ego, and a lack of trust are often what make this relationship break down.
- Great performance staffs respect professional boundaries while still working closely together.
- Foundational rehab and simple training principles still matter most.
- Athletes benefit most when everyone around them is aligned on the same message.
Quote
“At the end of the day, neither of us have jobs without the athletes.”
Jess Kinder
I think one of the best parts about one of the ideal relationships for a strength coaching athletic trainer is like we are on the same team and we both have to adapt what we do to fit the coaching staff style.
So like we both have to communicate. We both have to figure out like, all right, we had a really long practice today. Maybe we’re going to change this in the weight room. Maybe we need to do more of this in the athletic training room. So I think like this relationship is super important to be able to help the team. Coaching coaches, they’re the coaches they’re going to do they’re going to do regardless. And we have to adapt to that and kind of fill in the gaps for our team.
What’s going on Samson strength coach collective listeners on today’s episode, have Jess Kinder senior associate athletic trainer at Appalachian State University. Uh, she asked me to refer to her as big dog, uh, for the podcast. So, uh, we will certainly, I will make sure to get the title right for the rest of the episode. Uh, but she is our men’s basketball athletic trainer. And obviously, uh, she’s going to laugh at me saying this, my friend and a great athletic trainer. Exactly. All right. So, all right.
But thank you. absolutely not. So this is mostly how most of our conversations go, by the way. But we work. Yeah, okay. We work hand in hand with the men’s basketball team here at Appalachian State. And Jess, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. Well, there you go. Friend. Okay. All right. I immediately regret it. So, okay. So obviously we work together on a daily basis, but most people obviously don’t know your background.
So can you just give us a background of your career? What guys you interested in athletic training? Where you’ve been and then what’s brought you to Appalachian State? So my I have the standard why I want to be an athletic trainer story. I was an athlete growing up. I had a really good athletic trainer in high school. I had an injury and he was a big part of my wanting to come into this career. He also taught like our sports med class in high school as like a elective or whatever they call it. ⁓
So, and he went to Illinois State and my sister went to Illinois State. I was like, well, let me see. Like I went on a visit there. I didn’t want to go there because so many people had already gone there. That’s where everybody went, where I’m from. Loved it. Ended up going to school there. Absolutely loved going there. ⁓ At the time it was one of 13 master programs in the country. That’s obviously a lot different now. ⁓ But I got a really good education with really good people who were kind of like at the.
the cutting edge of what we were doing at the time. Um, went to school there and then I got my master’s at North Dakota State, um, in advanced athletic trading. So I, I picked a master’s program specifically for athletic trading where you could do, you know, a master’s in education, master’s of sports management. If I’m going to go to school, wanted to learn something that I cared about. So I did that. Um, my first job was at Bradley university with women’s basketball. And then I also helped with cross-frontery track and field.
tennis and then during COVID picked up volleyball and baseball also. So was pretty busy. And then I spent three years at Bradley. From there I went to Rutgers for women’s basketball for three years. And I had tennis also for two of those years. And then one quick year at Ball State and now I’m here with you guys. That’s crazy. It’s quite the story. like it. What was your injury? I don’t know about the injury. What was the injury that initially caused you to work with an athletic trainer?
I had an ankle sprain. played softball into college and I had an ankle sprain that turned into like, it’s called Simon’s Tarsie syndrome. So my ankle just like swole up all the time for no reason. So my feet were in the ice bucket all the time. was terrible. Yeah, it wasn’t ideal. But I spent a lot of time with him. And I think he overall was a really big impact for my career choices.
Um, and he actually passed away not too long ago in an accident. So it’s kind of like a, still something I think about a lot is like, would he not, would he be proud? guess I hope he’s proud, but like, am I still trying to be like as good as an athletic trainer as he was to me, to my athletes? think that I think you’d certainly be proud. I obviously know how you work with the athletes here. I know, uh, the level of care and dedication that you give to them, what were, what were the things that he did that really opened your eyes to?
the benefits of athletic training, what that relationship can look like with an athlete. The relationship. Yeah. Cause I think like athletic trainers are different because we are with athletes when they’re healthy, when they’re not healthy through a return to play after surgery. Sometimes we’re in surgery with them. Like I’ve been in several surgeries before. So you’re really with the athlete for the entirety of everything they do. They don’t have to be hurt to come see you. ⁓ and I think that’s, you know, I, I love that part of my job. I don’t have to.
see patients in a clinic every 15 minutes or appointment times, things like that, I just get to be around. I get to watch them practice. I get to watch them have fun. So the relationship is like the number one thing that, you know, and he was just fun to be around and like just made us all feel like we were superstars. So we were not, it was a very small high school. Yeah, it was, yeah, I just want to have good relationships with my teens.
Well, as you’re saying that, makes me kind of think back to, like you said, where they don’t have to be injured to come see you. You develop this relationship. When an athlete undergoes a serious injury or even a minor injury and you guys end up spending more time together and you do different types of work versus just prehab or maintenance or things like that, do you feel like the athlete relationship gets taken to a new level? Or does it transform a little bit? ⁓ I think, yeah, in like different ways though. I don’t think it’s always the same. think like,
Sometimes you just naturally have a better relationship, but like sometimes you have sillier athletes, more serious athletes, athletes who open up more, like they’re just around more. And then you have some athletes that you don’t initially connect with right away or a little bit more closed off. And like when you go into a rehab process, a long-term post-surgical process with someone like that, like you get to know them a lot more. And just like kind of like you’re starting from scratch versus like if you have an athlete who’s usually really talkative and really open and really silly, like, and then you go through this with them, it’s like,
You see the lot, you see a sadder side of them. it’s like, yeah, you’re going in the opposite direction, depending on the athlete, like how you start. and that’s just kind of like, it’s one of the better parts is like, you don’t know what you’re going to get and you can like kind of just evolve and be whatever you need to be for that athlete. And you just see different sides of different people. And of course you get closer in the end after going through something like that. Yeah. Yeah. I think back to, you know, from the straightening conditioning side, like obviously having a redshirt athlete.
versus a athlete who’s playing a lot. You know, like I think back to ⁓ one of our post players who obviously has done a great job this year, but he was a redshirt with me two years ago. And so we were super close. We’re still close, but our relationship was different because I saw him every single day, you know, and it was a lot more time than we spent together. And like you said, there’s even a little bit of the sad side to it because it’s like, my friends are playing. We were really good friends are playing and I’m missing out or I can’t do that or I can’t do what I used to be able to do. And there was a lot of cheerleading and there was a lot of
you know, look, there’s going to be better times, but you’ve kind of got to help encourage them and push them through those times. And it can be difficult a lot, you know? So I think then you see, okay, once they’re done with their process, whether it’s with the red shirt or with injury rehab, you don’t get to see them as much, there’s definitely a different, yeah, it does get a little sad for sure. absolutely. Right. Like that, that same player played 30 minutes per game for us, you know? So it was really a lot of time spent with the coaches, more time spent with you than it was.
Okay, let’s get this extra work in because you know, his capacity was just kind of felt full. And so ultimately it is a little bit sad, but you know, there is still that residual like, okay, we do have a different type of relationship than I do with someone who came in and immediately started playing. Like we have developed something different and makes it more fun in my opinion. Yeah. I think the other good aspect of like spending so much time, like one-on-one time with the rehab process is like when they come in, like with, with one of our injuries right now, when he comes in, like we kind of skip all of the.
the pleasantries. We’re just more comfortable. I know I can pick up when he’s having a bad day and maybe we’re not going to joke around as much. he can pick up when maybe I’m not having a good day. Hopefully they don’t really pick up on that often, but we are people. We’re just more comfortable with each other and it makes being in the training room more fun. You’re just like, this is a normal person that I care about that cares about me and we’re just here working towards the same goal. Yeah. I think it’s similar to…
the relationship that we have as strength coach and athletic trainer, because ultimately we see each other every day where that’s not really the case in a lot of different schools because obviously my main priority being here is with men’s basketball. Your main priority is with men’s basketball as well. And so we’re at practice every single day. We travel together. And so it’s the same type of our relationship development as well too. Like I see you a lot and we know how to, like you said, it’s not like I stopped by and I’m like, hey, how are you doing? And then, by the way, somebody
hurt their back and lift just so you know. so you know I hurt one of the No, no. It’s like we can communicate those things No, we have to our dark coat times. I wish I had mine to hold up, but I crushed mine in like five seconds. yeah, it’s already done. As everybody knows me, I love a DC. A DC. Yeah. I think one of the best parts about one of the ideal relationships for a strength coaching athletic trainer is like we are on the same team and we both have to adapt what we do to fit the coaching staff style.
So like we both have to communicate. We both have to figure out like, all right, we had a really long practice today. Maybe we’re going to change this in the weight room. Maybe we need to do more of this in the athletic training room. So I think like this relationship is super important to be able to help the team. Coaching coaches, they’re the coaches they’re going to do they’re going to do regardless. And we have to adapt to that and kind of fill in the gaps for our team. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. And I think the better relationship we have to the, like you said, it’s better for the team, but then there’s certain things that I can help you with.
Like just quick reminders about like, okay, as soon as the lift is done, you guys got to go see Jess right away, right? Get to the training room, sell the lolly. Which we have a team of loafers, that’s for sure. Yeah, Marinators. That’s the term they like to use. They’ll get in the training beds and Marinade. need to be personally escorted to everything that we do. But ultimately, you know, we can help each other out on those things too. So it is beneficial.
What do you, okay, so you mentioned already, like that’s one of the key pieces of a strength coach and athletic trainer relationship. What are the other things that you look for? What to you says that this is a really highly, high quality and high productive relationship versus one that may not be as much? I think sharing knowledge, like having similar, like you took anatomy classes and you’re taking all these extra, you’re educating yourself. And I try to be, I don’t know a lot about programming and whatnot, but I try to be familiar with the weight room.
So like being able to speak the same language is important to each other, like to our relationship. And then trust is huge. Like I need to, I need to know that when I put on the injury report, this person shouldn’t be doing plyos that like, you’re not going to have them do plyos. Like I know that you’re detail oriented. So like, I don’t have to worry about that. I don’t have to like go check in stuff. So that’s, that’s big. I mean, I think being on the same page in front of the athletes, so saying the same message and just like, even if even, you know,
We’re like, I don’t know, but we’re not saying the opposite of each other. It’s really important too. For sure. Where do you think, you know, because obviously this is a strain and conditioning podcast. We’ve had a lot of strain and conditioning coaches come on here and I’m sure you’re aware of it. I’ve been aware of it my whole career is that sometimes there can be a budding of heads between strain and conditioning and athletic training. And it’s almost like the natural order of things is that they’re not supposed to get along when really it’s like they’re supposed to be, if it’s a functional and a high quality sports performance team, they’re really supposed to get along.
Yeah. Where do you think it can go wrong? What are the ways that you think it can be a bad relationship? A lack of trust. think like, you know, egos, when egos get in the way of like, well, you’re doing this in the training room. And I, if I say like, I don’t think he should be doing pull-ups, but you think he should be doing pull-ups, things like that. Like I think talking, and I think we do a good job of like, Hey, this person’s at this phase of his rehab.
here’s what’s going on, like what do you think program wise we need to do for him in the weight room? So I think we make a lot of decisions together for people who are going through injuries, which is important, but I think egos really get in the way sometimes of people and like there’s no need for that. Cause at the end of the day, like neither of you, neither of us have jobs without the athletes. So like why are we arguing? Like if the athletes leave, I have nobody to take care of, you have nobody to train. Like it’s just, we have to be on the same page. Like no egos and just work together. Well, and I think kind of one of my pet peeves that I can see other strength coaches do is,
They kind of hit this weird realm where a lot of coaches are expected to overextend themselves in the areas that are just not their expertise. Right. So like, see my biggest pet peeve, obviously being married to a dietitian is when straight coaches are like, well, I’m also a nutrition coach, you know, and it’s like, well, nutritionist, anybody can be a nutritionist. You and I can call each other nutritionists at any point in time. ⁓ You know, but a dietitian is a much different thing. So then straight and conditioning coaches say, well, I can help you with the nutrition. I can do these things.
And I’ve also noticed a leak into kind of the athletic training row where strength coaches say, well, I know these rehab exercises. I think that these are the most beneficial. it’s like, what blows my mind and I just don’t get it is like, I know the programming side. I know the strength and conditioning side. I know all the things that we can do and I can do well. Why not let the expert be the expert, right? And do the appropriate things and handle the rehab process. Well, and vice versa. Like I know that in February you’re not going to kill them.
And then that’s going to make me deal with more soreness and things like that in the training room. I think like, just like, know that you know what you’re doing. You’re not going to make decisions that are going to make my job harder. Hopefully I don’t make decisions that make your job harder. So I think that’s, that’s important. Yeah, for sure. Okay. So what are some things that you would like people to be aware about athletic training? Maybe specifically strength coaches, maybe like, I guess what I’m asking is what are the challenges that you face? What are some things that you think people
uh, should be more aware of or should understand about athletic trainings that the better relationship can be developed. I think just talk to each other, like just talk to each other more. Like we’re all doing the same. Like we all get tired throughout the season and we all like work a lot. And then we all usually have to do things that aren’t in our job description and we just get annoyed. But I think like talking to each other helps almost any problem. Um, and just like giving the other person a chance to
to do the right thing and be successful. I’ve definitely had situations with strength coaches in the past where it’s like, there is somebody on the injury report that should not be doing a certain movement and then they’re doing it and that’s frustrating to me and that’s a lack of trust. But I think talking to each other ahead of time avoids a lot of those problems. Even if I send you the injury report every day, we still talk. So there’s nothing that falls through the cracks. And respect professionally.
Like what we talked about, like if you’re the expert in that room, I’m the expert in that room. Like it’s just, just respect each other and don’t have an ego and try to go kick down other people’s doors. Let people be the experts in their areas. Yeah. And possibly when strength coaches just take a long time to write programs that can be tough too. That is one of the biggest complaints of my current job. Yeah, it’s tough. The guy who programs for me takes forever. I wrote, I wrote Jess a four week program one time and
She saw the results that can come from it and then it was two weeks, but you knew how to progress it for four weeks. Four weeks was implied, it was a two week program, ⁓ but you saw the results and you saw how amazing the program was and it was just like, just gotta have another program. I ended up building suspense, taking more time to write the program, but now the new program’s uploaded. Actually, as of today, you got the email today. Look at that, that’s pretty exciting news.
But think that’s something that helps like athletic trainer strength coach relation. Not that you should program for your athletic trainer. Although all strength coaches should program for their athletic trainer. But I think just like that helps with our understanding. Cause like I am familiar with your programming. I know what you’re doing in the weight room. I know like you’re not doing crazy, dangerous movements or you’re not, I know that you’re not doing too much. Cause I think in both of our worlds, there is a trend of like doing the complicated things in the simple things have worked for so long for a reason.
and I think that’s something you do really well with your programming is like, don’t, it’s not overcomplicated. It’s not these really complex movements or whatever that the guys can’t enhance, like can’t wrap their minds around. But, ⁓ I know that you just have like good quality to the point programming. That’s very kind of you. Thank you. Really? I appreciate that. Yeah. It’s very nice. Cause
You’ve also, I mean, I’ve told our listeners probably a million times that I really truly program as simple as possible. So you really do. I appreciate it. Thank you. You really do. Okay. I don’t like the really do. I mean, you put in like simple, like straight forward movements, but then like it’d be like the eight, six, five, five, five, five, or like the E-centrics or things like that. And like level it up. Yeah. But in the appropriate areas. And that’s why I try to do this. I appreciate that.
But I think that’s also where we align, like you said, you know, and I think that’s a big piece of why we can get along and have a good relationship is because ultimately we both agree that simple is going to be the best foundation for it. If you need to get complicated later, you can, but everybody should be on the simple piece first and then we can discover what we need further. A lot of people skip the foundation. Yeah. They skip like what works and like they jump to phase 10 of an exercise. it’s like this athlete can’t even stand on one foot. Yeah. Like let’s work on balance before we start doing balance and
all of this other vestibular training with that. Like stop, stop. Just get your athlete to balance first. Well, it’s like when I see, you know, middle school strength coach has taken their athletes through triphasic, you know, it’s like, well, this person can’t even squat their body weight yet. Fantastic. And now we’re doing, you know, French contrast training. can’t even body weight. Yeah, exactly. Like we need to figure this stuff out first. I guess that brings me into one of the questions I’m curious about, like what are the trends in athletic training right now that are bothering you or what are some things that you see?
too much of and it’s kind of a little bit annoying. I think in general, athletic training has been through a lot of changes right now. ⁓ Moving from an undergraduate clinical program to an entry level master’s degree and it’s changed the entire curriculum. So athletic trainers that are coming out are very different. And I think we are trying to move our profession forward and like get paid more and get more respect in the medical world and things like that, which is all great.
⁓ But I do see kind of a drop in interpersonal skills and relationships in general. I think a lot of our newer grads struggle talking to coaches and talking to each other. And so I think we need to work on our relationship building and athletic training right now. And then the same thing with it becoming an entry level master’s degree. I think the curriculum has really gotten a little like.
it’s skipped the foundation. We’re doing all of this kind of crazy measurements and crazy data collection things like, but that we have no data to collect if you can’t rehab an ankle. So like let’s rehab an ankle. Let’s learn how to do our job. And then as you’re in the career, in the profession, moving through, like then you can add, like, I want to be a sports science, a data-driven type of athletic trainer. I want to be a rehab-driven or I’m doing manual therapy or whoever you want to be. Do that after. So I think we’re kind of skipping.
We’re skipping a lot and relationships is the reason most of us got into this career. And we’re skipping that phase of like how to talk to people. yeah, I think it goes very hand in hand with some of the strength and conditioning stuff that I see. Like, I think you, in my opinion, have to be a master of the general before you can specialize. Yeah. And so ultimately we see a lot of people who specialize really quickly and they say, well, I’m going to be a basketball strength coach. I’m going be a football strength coach. When the best thing I ever did was, you know, take the part-time job at Tennessee. And then I had to assist literally every team.
You know, and now it’s like, okay, now I know how different people train golf, softball, rowing. Like it’s all these different sports with lot of different components, but it allowed me to think outside the box. But really you’re just being general. But then when I want to specialize, you can do things better from there. think, yeah, mean, athletic training, the same thing. I was a GA at a D2 school and being at a D2 school, I had to cover everything. And then going to a small mid-major that didn’t have football and we had four people on staff. Like we, we all covered a lot of sports and I think that’s good for you to just get.
experience of how to be a strength coach, being an athletic trainer, whatever. But I think a lot of times as we get into our career, we’re like, oh, this certification is really popular. I’m gonna go get that. I’m gonna go get dry needled. I’m gonna get manual therapy. I’m gonna get this rehab. I’m gonna, you’re gonna get certifications in every little pile and you’re not a master of anything. Like you don’t have like your bread and butter. This is what I’m really good at. This is like what my staff can come to me and know that I will, I will guarantee I know how to do that. So like for me, it’s like,
Rehab, I’m really rehab based, movement based and like lower body, obviously. If I have a shoulder question or I’m dealing with a shoulder rehab, I know I can go to our baseball AT. She’s going be able to help me with that. Or maybe we have somebody who’s really good with manual therapy and like trigger points and releases and manipulations. And I can go to that person for that, but I don’t need to be good at, I don’t need to be 50 % good at everything. I need to be really good in my lane. Yeah. Yeah. I think.
What’s even been funny for me too, when I go back and take these anatomy classes and as I’ve been trying to do more continuing education work, like, is like, I wasn’t even really that good at the general stuff. You know, I’m relearning a lot of stuff and I’m like, okay, I kind of knew this, but I didn’t like, I couldn’t repeat it. I couldn’t pass the test on it without restudying it, you know? So it’s been interesting for me to see that eight, nine years into my career, there’s still a lot of stuff that I have to review and go over before I can even really consider myself a master of We all should continue to do that.
For us and for you too, mean, for both of us, if you know anatomy, you can figure out almost anything. ⁓ But if you stop studying anatomy or you stop revisiting anatomy, you’re gonna lose some of it. So I think just having a really big emphasis on education and continuing education is really important over your career. And I think the biggest lesson I’ve learned is just that the forearm muscles are a massive pain in the ass. I hate them. I can’t do them very well.
The facial muscles, muscles, the neck muscles. There’s a lot of groups of muscles that are really terrible to And I’m not very good at finding them on the top my pig. The deep rotators. Yeah, miserable. Absolutely Too many names, very long names. Yeah. Well, you’ve mentioned it just a little bit, but what is really your philosophy within the athletic training room? Obviously we talked about there’s going to be a lot of general movements. There’s going to be some prehab work. There’s going be a lot of lower body work that you specialize in, but
What is the goal of the athletic training room for you? Let’s say for somebody who’s not injured and then somebody who is injured. think if you’re, so the easy one is if you’re not injured, like I want you to know that it’s a space that you can come and like continue to be not injured. So I want you to learn and we are, we’re in the Sunbelt. We’re not, you know, our whole team isn’t going to the NBA this year, but I want them to know how to take care of themselves when they do go play overseas or the G league or wherever they end up going. Hopefully they all go to the NBA, but I need them to learn how to stretch.
Cause like it’s kind of, it’s kind of wild when you see these athletes who have been playing basketball for their whole lives and you’re like, stretch your hamstring. And they’re like, what is that? You’re like the back of your leg. You can do it. They’re like, how do I do that? Well, here’s four different ways that you can stretch your hamstring, pick which one you like the most, but I want them to learn how to take care of their body so they can continue to play after college. I want them to like know that it’s an open door and like, here’s some recovery things. you’re, I always tell them when you’re in November,
you’re going to feel so good in November compared to February. like the more that you do in the summer and in the fall, the better you will feel in the spring. So I want them to come in and be proactive, learn how to do some mobility exercises, learn how to, you know, if they want to get in the red light, whatever they want to do. If you’re not injured, you can do whatever you want to do. If you’re injured, I can just pick what you do. And then, and in that case, the same thing, like I do want them to learn. Like we have somebody graduating right now who has a recurrent ankle issue.
And I want him to learn how to take care of that when he goes wherever he’s going to go, because he’s at the point that an injury could mean the end of his career because he’s not going to get a contract. So they need to learn the same skills. ⁓ when you’re in for an injury in, for, my ideal scenario in the training room, ⁓ I do same thing. Don’t skip the basics. ⁓ we’re not a feel good training room. Like we’re, you know, we’re here to get some stuff done. ⁓ we’re not going to just sit on the table and.
Hug it out. We’re not going to do that. But I think rehab, like we do rehab every day. And if you like same thing, if I know that you have for a basketball like patellar tendonitis, you’re probably going to have it forever. In the summer, we’re going to hit that really hard. We’re going to, you’re going to be doing rehab strengthening five days a week in the summer. And in the season, if you did what you were supposed to do, hopefully we can knock down two, three days a week, but building a foundation for those kinds of chronic injuries.
And then, know, acute injuries, it’s how fast can we do everything possible to keep you playing? if you’re in three times a day, you’re in three times a day. But ⁓ I like to look at every ankle swing is different. Every knee is different. Like, I can’t get tunnel vision to like, is what I do for ankles because it might not work for this person. So just reassessing every day. And like, of course I come in with a plan of like, this is what I want to do today with this ankle, but maybe it’s not ready.
Or maybe he had a rough day yesterday and we have to change. So I think being flexible and just like, you know, I’m a perfectionist. I really expect them to do high quality rehab. Like I don’t want them to go do this exercise the wrong way. Cause we’re wasting both of our times. So I’m very like on top of them performing whatnot. Like if you’re going do it right, don’t do it at all. We’ll be inefficient. Yeah. I want to be efficient. We got things to do. I got other athletes to take care of.
So like, let’s all stay on track so you can go play basketball. That’s the goal. That’s excellent. And I do really appreciate what you say about the life skills aspect of it because as you and I both worked in basketball, we’ve heard some horror stories of what happens overseas, right? You don’t have anything. You literally like in some situations, the team barely even feeds you. Or you’re sleeping on couch. Exactly. And now you’re trying to figure out how to lift, how to rehab your own injuries. And like you said too, especially with your career,
In athletic training. It’s really important because if you get injured, there’s no time for injuries over there It’s not like you are the key mark player that they’re gonna have to hold on to and there’s no scholarships involved They’ll just cut you and you probably don’t have healthcare. Yeah, so good luck. Well, and then if you look at the universal healthcare system, too Like it’s fantastic. But one of the detriments is it’s not built for athletes. There’s no speed You’re not gonna get answers immediately, you know, and so ultimately the life skills
Peace is really important, especially for our level because like you said, everybody wants to to the NBA. I would love for everybody to to the NBA. We have a player who was with us last year who went to the NBA, which is awesome. But out of my, you know, what this would be my fourth season with the program we just finished up, we’ve had one player go to the NBA, you know, and a lot of players go overseas. And so they need to learn how to take care of themselves because that’s the reality of men’s professional basketball. Well, and even the ones who do get the two way contract, so they go to the NBA, like you’re still
Yeah, like they’re not gonna step away from LeBron to take care of you. No, so you gotta be on top of your stuff, no matter what level you go to, you really need to stay, you need to be preventative. Yeah. Because if you’re not, if the best ability is availability, like if you’re not taking care of your body and the only thing you need, you can go buy new shoes, you can go buy a new uniform, you can go buy a ball, you can’t buy a new body. So you have to take care of it on the front end.
I’m gonna steal this can be the quote for the show. That’s a good one. I that. But you know, again, it’s It makes sense. was good. I’m bought in. I don’t think they would ever want me anyway. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. but you know, ultimately you mentioned the piece to where, you know, if you are a rookie, they’re going to be really concerned with the high level players, the ones who on the max contracts and then
Ultimately, another piece of your recruitment too is how seriously you take the training room. Of course. You get calls from scouts. I’ll get calls from scouts about what does this look like? You know, it could be the make or break between signing a contract for some players because if they find out, okay, this is somebody who is just talented enough to play for us, but are they going to be a problem? Like do we have to worry about finding this guy? is this guy going to have to sit 10 games out? Whereas I could sign this guy who is in really good health and really takes care of his body, eats well, sleeps, lifts, like does what he needs to do. They’re going to sign that guy.
No doubt. And we’ve both seen it. So I’m glad we can mention it. You know, obviously don’t have a lot of, ⁓ you know, athlete listeners to this podcast, but for the strength coaches, you know, and maybe one day that’d be cool. Right. ⁓ but you know, for the strength coaches, it’s important to know that like, these are two people who’ve had the same experience and seen these things. So you can share the same message with, with your athletes from a basketball standpoint, what are kind some of the major injuries that you typically see? What are the recurrent injuries and you know, ultimately, how do you try to address?
those in a pre-hab standpoint or prevention standpoint? I mean, there’s a ton of research on basketball injuries. So like we know that we’re going to have ankle sprains. We know that we’re going to have knee tendonized injuries and we know we’re probably going to have back pain. that back pain a lot of times comes from the hips. doesn’t usually, and that’s something that people need to think about is if you have like an area of pain, it’s probably not coming from that direct area. So like treating the entire body.
But I think ankle sprains for sure, number one. And then a lot of mobility, because if the body is tight, you’re going to get hurt. So you have to move. You have to, and I like how with your programming, you always throw some of that stuff in there. So then I don’t have to do it. I can spend time on other things. It works well. Yeah, works well. But like, I know that you do ⁓ like the low back touches that you call them, like pelvic tilts for us A.T.s. The straight cut just dumb it down a little bit. The full back touches. Touch your low back. Touch your low back to the ground.
I know you do stuff like that. I know you do like the toes in, toes out, heel and toe walking stuff. So like, don’t do that in the gym. That’s another thing with like, we talk, I know what your programming is. So don’t, we’re not double living. We’re not wasting the athlete’s time, just, you know you’re gonna have ankles range. You know you’re gonna have to tell your tendonitis. So like kind of teaching them ahead of time not to do that. Or not to, you can avoid. Just don’t start your ankles. I tell them all the time. Don’t let your knee hurt. I don’t know what you’re doing.
telling them ahead of time, like we have a gonna be a junior right now that has had patellar tendinitis for two years now. Like he thinks he’s done with rehab. He’s not done with rehab. You will just be good. like you will be, you have to stay on top of it. Like it’s gonna keep coming back and because like, you know, you have these, maybe you have weak eccentric control or something that, you know, but you can fix things on the front end. I know that you’re probably gonna sprain your ankle at some point. What can we do that?
that makes it a great one instead of a great three when you map it. It’s like how fast. And the stronger you go into something, the faster you come out of it with rehab base. So if you can have a foundation for those three things, so ankles, knees, and backs, then you’re probably in a good spot. That’s awesome. like the, you know, the only one I would possibly add in myself is, you know, literally hamstring strains or groin strains. That’s you can is wet. ⁓ the floor is wet? my goodness. can’t handle it. Yeah. I mean, like you can only do so much. Yeah. Like, I mean, there’s…
not like uneven surfaces on the court. Yeah. So if they’re going to sprain their ankle, it’s probably going to be from landing on, you know, and we have so much research in basketball now that we know that, you know, I think it’s, I don’t know, some number, don’t know, probably 80 % of ankle sprains happen in the pain. Yeah. Rebounding. Because that’s the most, you know, probably change you’re going to land. Collection of feet. Yeah, collection of feet. You’re jumping, you’re turning, you’re getting hit while you’re in the air. So like, we kind of know where injuries are going to happen and what’s going to happen in certain areas of the court even like.
you in transition you reach higher speeds and things so kind of try to predict and prevent those things. As much as possible, you know, so. I know after this you’re going to make fun of me for some things. No, I’m not. You’re doing a great job. Seriously, you’re doing fantastic. I am kind of mean to her, so I won’t lie about that. But I do want to talk about a little bit of what our process was going into the Sunbelt Tournament because I thought we had a really good system. And so obviously, what’s up Zach?
So obviously, you know, there was a lot of discussion of with the tournament, you could just may have seen on Twitter with the strain the conditioning, ⁓ you know, or sorry, the basketball approach of now we’re going to play seven games in seven days. And it’s going to be as much as possible. Yeah. The fun belt gauntlet or whatever they call it. Right. ⁓ And so obviously we come in, we were four seed. So we have to win the tournament, have to win three games in three days.
Didn’t go our way, but we had a plan for if, know, we were locked in, you know, so I’ll start with my end of things is, you know, I knew for a fact that there were going to be some things that had to be available for and that there were going to be some things that I knew the players might want to do like ice baths. There’s some modalities that they could like and they could end up using. They could not end up using. My area was a little bit more on the voluntary side. What was your area like? And then.
How was it blending what we had to come up with an ultimate plan? I think the first thing we did is we didn’t recreate what we already do. So we know what our routine is on the road. We know that we’re going to do film and walk through at night, and then you’re going to do a mobility session with them. So keeping those things the same, like, OK, we’re going to do what we always do. And then we’re going to add, for us, we don’t play 12 players. So we can spend a lot of time on our starters and the two, three that come off the bench.
So we added IVs in between games was the plan, obviously. But, and then morning, we want to make sure that they, you and I both agree that they need to get off their feet sometimes and like less is more every now and then. ⁓ So what can we do to maximize their be efficient in our care for them? Let them go to bed after the game. They need to go to bed and then we don’t need to keep them up doing all these extra things. Like if we do IVs at night, they’re probably going to be up going to the bathroom. We need them to get high quality sleep. So.
You always do the creatine and everything else that you do in the bottles at night. So we had that unlock. For me, it was just kind of like if we have injury people, like I’m going to take care of them post game. Well, we, you know, a quick little session, but otherwise they need to go to bed. They need to sleep. We’re not going to get them up early. We’re going to find time around the team schedule to do red light, to do Norma tech boots, to do ice baths, to do the warm wool pools. Like we have a lot of different options, but overall our biggest thing was just.
Efficiency. Yeah, so like pairing up maybe they’re gonna be in the Norma Tech boots in front of the red light getting an IV all at same time Yeah, so then they don’t have to spend more time on their feet or moving around Well, and we both know the routine that walks through a lot and we watch you know a good amount of film not as much film as necessarily but a lot of walk through a lot of a lot of being on their feet in those moments too, so again That’s where it’s beneficial for us to have a good relationship as we know. Okay, we already know these things We don’t even have to have almost like you were saying with the you know ⁓
like let me have a pleasantries conversation first. Like we don’t even have to discuss the guidelines for this. We know these things so that we can have a conversation from there. But I thought what worked really well, was our conversation really started from a standpoint of like, all right, what can I do to help you? What can you do to help me? Where do we meet the middle to make sure that we’re as efficient as possible? Well, and also like, what do you think is actually necessary? For sure. Like what is like, does everybody need to take an ice bath? No. Do we have certain guys who really like it or certain guys that we should recommend that they do it? Yes. And if they really like it they’re not injured.
Do your thing. If that’s gonna make you score 20 plus points, do your thing. Please do it. Take all the ice back you want. The other important thing is we know our team really well and we know that we can’t over schedule them because then we will not get quality. So we have to condense, we have to be efficient, otherwise we lose them. And they’re not really gonna try. They’re gonna be at mobility because they have to, but it’s not gonna be as good quality. So I think knowing your team is important with that too.
Well, I’m also curious about this too, from an athletic training standpoint, you know, in the season, right? You guys have to be here the most out of anybody I’d say, right? Cause you end up covering practices, right? And then you’re there for rehabs and treatments. But then on Sundays, you’re also available when we typically have Sundays off, right? And so you have to still come into work on the days where everybody else has to come into work. You know, what does the work life balance look like for an athletic trainer? What are some ways that you try to decompress to help?
keep your longevity in this career? think, you know, for us working basketball, like you kind of know that you’re not going to have a work life balance. Like you kind of have to tell yourself like, this is what I signed up for. Like I know I have to work on Sundays, but I also know that on Sundays, I’m going to get more done on a Sunday than I am on a Tuesday because I don’t have to compete with the weight room time, the practice time, film, study hall. I don’t have to compete with everything else on their schedules. I get my dedicated time with them. So like, I really look forward.
two Sundays on at this point, I used to hate them. I I still get a little upset driving in sometimes, but like, I know that I’m going to have a really good, just like one-on-one or one on, you know, however many come in that day. I mean, we mandate it. So, but I get to actually do some time with them without having to worry about what time they have to leave or what else they have going on. And they’re usually a little bit more locked in. So I really enjoy it and changing my mindset over the hours is really the only thing you can do. Um, I went to a talk at a conference a couple of years ago.
And the director at Michigan did a talk on burnout and he said, like, it’s unrealistic to say you’re not gonna have bad days, but burnout isn’t really a thing if you really like what you do. So I think, you know, making sure that you know what you signed up for. This is what I get tired and cranky in February, like, but I also know that in May I’m not gonna do very much or like this week we’re off, we’re chilling, we’re hanging out. I think just having a passion for what you do is important. And that helps fix a lot of things.
No doubt. mean, I think what you said that was interesting too, is you said you used to hate the Sundays and now you’ve had, I’m sure you had to learn to grow to love them and have that mindset. Yeah, I mean like I have to work Sunday if I want to my job. No, if I want to keep my job, I got to work on Sunday. So, that’s, I like to win. I really hate losing and it puts me in a bad mood and then I’m not a good version of myself or of other people in my life. But what can I do to help us win? Like getting a lot done on a Sunday helps us
It helps us have a better week so we don’t have to put things off. And if they do nothing besides marinate like they like to do on Sundays, they’re going to come in Monday really stiff. So I think just, you I just, I like to win and winning makes me happy. So what can I do to help us win? that’s that. I think I have a very similar mindset on that too, because, know, there’s certain times where I don’t really want to make shakes or fruit cups or do these things, right? like, the same time, you know, it’s like, okay, are my actions…
helping us get closer to winning. Even to the 0.0001%. Fine. Is there a chance? there a chance that this could help us win? Yes. Because how many games come down to one shot or one small thing and you never know what really affected it. So ultimately is what I’m doing helping us win I think is a really good mindset because there’s going be some stuff you don’t want to do. if you can convince yourself or if you just know in the back of your mind that this is really something that’s going be beneficial to the team, it’ll make it a lot easier to go through it. Yeah, for sure.
There was something I read, I listened to a story about this selection process for this current bracket. There was a team that made it in based off a couple of wins that the commentators were talking about. And it was a total difference of three points. was one point, a one point win in one game and a two point win in another game. There were two huge wins on getting them in to March Madness. And
You know, those one points and those two points come from things that we do. like come from training, come from recovery, come from the shakes and meals that you, that you help them with and the creatine and everything that we put into it. Like that could be the difference of making or breaking the postseason. Like one or two points. Well, I think about South Alabama this year, they, I mean, in my opinion, got kind of, you know, hosed on a couple of games because of last minute fouls or things that happened. Like they lost to Arc State. I think it was twice now.
you know, or sorry, was Arkansas State. That’s what I’m thinking. Arkansas State was the one who lost twice to South Alabama. yeah. Like a last second shot that took it over time or another last second foul that was called. It wasn’t really a foul. You know, and these things like ultimately ended up to them being a seven seed, even though they were tied for second place, which is a whole wild thing about the Sunbelt. Six way tie for second. But that’s what matters. I like when you actually prepare your athletes, like that those things make a difference. For sure. Like those one point win games make a huge difference. And that comes from preparation. Yeah.
Okay, one final question for you. Who is your favorite dog on the planet? My dog. What’s his name? Deacon. Deacon. Tell us about Deacon a He is almost nine year old chocolate lab. He’s got a little salt and pepper. A goatee if you will. He is the best boy in the world and he does come with training rooms sometimes in the off season. You know, he can’t come on the court.
but he ⁓ loves coming to the training room and seeing all the athletes. He’s a big hit with volleyball this year. And all of the athletes usually have nicknames for him. ⁓ Some are appropriate, some are inappropriate because they just run with it. he is, you know, it’s nice having, you know, being able to bring them around and it kind of lifts the morale in the training room. So I always look forward to that in the off season. is like, or Sundays, he gets to come on Sundays sometimes. And that’s plus is I get to bring my dog to work. A therapy dog, essentially.
Yeah, like an unofficial, like a non-governmental thing. Yeah, that’s because just in case a governing board is listening. Sorry, sorry, no, we actually don’t bring him to Yeah, don’t bring him work at No, he just sits outside. Yeah. Well, ultimately, I think DK is fantastic. Obviously, I’ve got three dogs that I prefer, but I’d rank him fourth on the list. Really? Yeah. I mean, I’ve got to go with my three dogs. Like, ideally, and he’s great in the car. Like, I want to convince DK to let me bring him.
That’ll be yeah, we’ll do another episode in the year and see how that update went so well Jess Thank you so much. Seriously. It was a it was a very good episode even though you think I’m gonna make fun of you Besides just on the don’t you know piece of it?
Well, my favorite is when they’re like, when I do this, it hurts. It’s don’t do it. I don’t know what to tell you. Why would you do that? So selfish. Well, that and like now look at you. Yeah. You should have done something else. thank you very much for coming on. I appreciate it. If somebody wants to follow you on Instagram or, you know, reach out with any questions they may have for the episode, what would be the best way to do that? I’m not on Twitter or X. I’m not on anything besides Instagram.
What’s the Instagram? Just JessKinder. That’s it. The one and one. Easy to search, one and one. All right, well thank you, Jess. I appreciate it. Thanks, kid. Yeah, absolutely.
